Why I Cannot Join Shofar

February 18th, 2008 · Posted by Hugo · 69 Comments

There are a couple of reasons, but here’s one. Point Eleven on their Statement of Faith aka membership contract…

11. With regards to submission to authority, we believe in the principle of being in authority because you are under authority. As such, it is understood that membership shall be subject to submission to authority in matters pertaining to church governance, doctrine and personal behaviour.

They’d claim authority over my personal behaviour?! I’m sorry, I thought the point of Jesus dying on the cross was to give each believer direct access to God? This really doesn’t correspond to my understanding of the Christian tradition… Every believer, in my understanding, should submit only to God, not to some authority figure, not to one another. The alarm bells are clamouring in my head. Yes, we walk a path through life together. We learn from one another. We listen to pastors preaching, lecturers lecturing, teachers teaching. We discuss things. We respect one another. We apply the golden rule. But we don’t Lord it over one another. Will that meme ever die, or do we need Jesus to come back so that we can kill him again?

I find inspiration everywhere. I can learn from Fred May, I can learn from Richard Dawkins, I can learn from philosophy, fiction, other religions, other myths, other cultures, the Bible, I can learn from Shofar. But no man will ever play God over me. That position is not available.

I, the undersigned, freely and voluntarily subscribe to the basic principles set out in this Statement of Faith and understand and consent to the fact that should I violate such principles, I may be required by the leadership to either accept their counsel and discipline or forfeit my membership.

No can do. It goes against my beliefs.

Categories: Shofar
Tags: Authority · Shofar Membership

69 responses so far ↓

1 Hugo // Feb 18, 2008 at 10:41 am

Hmm, does this post also contain too much melodrama?
2 Al Lovejoy // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:41 am

Calling on all atheists, non-theists, agnostics, Moslems, Jews, Taoists, Maoists, Closet neo-Buddhists and worshippers of the Great Crocodile God Offler…

Answer the simple questions you might have running in your mind after first imagining, growing up without a father and secondly growing up an orphan:

Listen to this kid:

Is it wrong for my Mom to give money to Shofar, when she is alone …and I know she is lonely too (I’ve heard her crying at night but she doesn’t know), and she has to work all the time and we both need stuff and me and my little sister never see her? And the Pastor says if she doesn’t give him 10% of what is left of her paycheck at work - Jesus isn’t going to bless us. And it’s been like that since our dad died when I was six and Missy was two. That’s when she started to go to church. Afted dad died. Before that we never went to church and we always had everything. Sometimes when she had no work at all they would help out with some money and food but when she got work again - she started paying them money again.

Doesn’t Jesus want our Mom to buy us stuff we need first? And pay for the flat? Can’t we save just a little bit so we can maybe go on holiday? The Bible school teacher says Jesus loves little children, so can’t Jesus let us keep a bit for ourselves? Please?

1. Do YOU, yes you reading this - think it is immoral to take money for any conceivable reason from a woman, alone and trying to earn a living and raise children alone? Very simple question - Do you think it is immoral?

Do you think it is immoral to take money from a child who has lost forever, one or both their parents?

Shofar Christian church preaches this filthy money scam, my wife Natasha heard Senior Pastor Fred May explaining to the Congregation how single mothers were to give him money, the full 10% of their paychecks - and if they got into financial trouble doing so - the church would pray for them. BUT they had to understand that this was NOT A LAW, no, but, BUT if they were obedient, JESUS WOULD BLESS THEM!!! And of course the opposite of a blessing is a CURSE FOR NOT GIVING FRED MAY THEIR CASH!!!

This is nothing more than the extortion and exploitation of single mothers, something that is immoral, criminal and then and then only, at last, we come to the religious understanding - it is decideldly unchristian and it is a sin.

If you agree, join our protest behind Stellenbosch Station on Mar 01, 2008 at 15h00 to 16h00 - just one hour and join us - NO MATTER WHAT YOUR RELIGION!!!

We want to see Oude Molen become Oude Molen Orphanage. Immediately.

The reason I am calling on every other religion and non-religion I can think of (I think I forgot Rastas and Rooster Worshippers) to join in is - ANY human being, no matter their belief systems - can protest against gross social immorality - Jesus Christ simply got dragged into the middle of this particualar ugly mess (without His Permission I might add).

If you can’t join us, leave your comments on the invitation wall - we welcome them but of course we would welcome you and every friend you know to join us for that hour on the 01 March preferrably.

One of my very best friends observed to me once and I agree with him whole heartedly:

IF WE TREAT JUST ONE GENERATION OF OUR CHILDREN PROPERLY - WE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD FOREVER.

P.S. For those of you who may be dismayed at the ferocity of my anger in other places on the net - as directed at this man, his wife and lieutenants - allow me that anger, which I consider righteous - because nothing makes me more speechless with fury - than child abuse. And I consider myself pretty much an expert on it in all its insiduous forms. Starting with something utterly innocous like: Mommy is NOT going to LOVE you if you DON’T EAT YOUR PEAS…to the misery of being used as a human toilet. Allow me anger as I defend those to whom this is happening right this second and support us to stop it somewhere close. Matt 18.
3 Al Lovejoy // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:50 am

Gal2:20, 1 Tim 2:5, Heb 8:6 to support your position Hugo - and The Promise:

Joh 16:13

I too, will worship no man - or have any authority over me except Our Father.
4 Sweet Chili // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:51 am

Hugo, I think you have the answer in the question itself…otherwise, you wouldn’t ask, would you?
5 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 12:50 pm

I think its really sad that there is not adequate explanation for clauses like that one in the statement of faith.

Similar to baptism etc. there are quite deeply rooted reasons for adopting these principles, but all one ever sees is the clause.

Im not trying to say its something I completely agree with - but ots something I prefer to question out of a place of loyalty. (kindof like the whole evaporation thing) Every church you fellowship in will have certain points that won’t agree with you Hugo. That being said I do believe there is a church out there that connects with something in you, that you can slot into and be loyal to. Do this as a matter of urgency, I emplore you.

There is a lot of points to consider before writing off something like that as against your beliefs. It would be possible to ignore the development of certain of one’s beliefs if investigation is not fulfilled.
6 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I don’t think it is melodrmatic: but it’s tone could have been a little less certain, a little more seeking. Maybe that is more pertinent to your approach to the topic in general than this blog per se.
7 Ben-Jammin' // Feb 18, 2008 at 12:55 pm

I hope you get plenty of supporters with the protest, Al Lovejoy, and some good comes of it. You sound a lot less angry than I would probably be.
8 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 2:17 pm

O en PS:

Is dit nie billik om te verwag as jy deel van ‘n instansie wil vorm dat jy jou aan daardie instansie se ideologiese inslag onderwerp nie?

A house divided against itself will not stand.

Dis vir my ‘n taai ene, want telkens verskil ek ook met die leierskap op fyner punte.

Constructive Input please?
9 Hugo // Feb 18, 2008 at 3:38 pm

Sweet Chili, yea. I’m working on figuring out what seems to be a fine line between “melodramatic” and “passionate”. Or maybe it isn’t a fine line, I must just find better ways of expressing passion?

Ben:

I donâ€™t think it is melodrmatic: but itâ€™s tone could have been a little less certain, a little more seeking. Maybe that is more pertinent to your approach to the topic in general than this blog per se.

Thanks. I will take a page out of Borg’s book and try to infuse my writing with humility, even in cases where my own views are pretty strong. It will be necessary, there are many finicky details I’d like to consider/discuss, and I’m not really interested in enemies.

A house divided…

I see a church more as an organism. A living organism, embracing diversity. I like Stellenbosch Gemeente’s approach. It seems to stand just fine, despite diverse views on homosexuality, diverse views on literalism, baptism, etc… I think there are better things to be certain about, better things to build foundations on, than a strong, deep hierarchical corporate structure.

Can I ask you about this?:

That being said I do believe there is a church out there that connects with something in you, that you can slot into and be loyal to. Do this as a matter of urgency, I emplore you.

May I ask what your motivation is for imploring me like this? What is the context, the framing, of this request? (What was your terminology for loaded questions/statements again?)
10 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Hmmm. i think it’s a difficult question to answer without the help of paralinguistic communication. ie. we should have coffee over it.
11 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Actually: Its got to do with the swimming pool. I’d like to see you stay in a pool.

Secondly I think you (while I can understand you thinking so) are missinterpreting the point of that clause. It is not something that is policed upon: and my experience is that it will probably only really come into play when a person is acting devisively. I really don’t experience a lack of freedom for expressing a contrary opinion. I did an internship year last year and was in close contact with many of the pastors and have agreed to disagree on some finer points. But yes our church can become quite ruthlessly dogmatic about things like baptism etc. which are problematic. even so I sincerely Love being there and I am in fact hurt when good ol’ Acid alex slanders the crap out of the people I love and trust.

We can, and should still have coffee over it.
12 Hugo // Feb 18, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Yea, coffee or tea before the week’s over. Consider this a commitment.
13 Johan Swarts // Feb 18, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Sies Ben, daar steel jy my lyntjie oor paralinguisme. Skaam jou
14 Johan Swarts // Feb 18, 2008 at 7:30 pm

(Kan ons nie sommer saamdrink nie?)
15 Hugo // Feb 18, 2008 at 7:32 pm

Ooh, ‘n threesome! Wat sÃª jy, Ben? Ek, jy, en Johan?
16 Auke // Feb 18, 2008 at 10:47 pm

me too, me too. And I’ll be vewy vewy quiet…
17 Hugo // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:11 pm

lol @ Auke… That could be lots of fun. I don’t want your tongue to start bleeding though, y’know?
18 Bad Ben // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:43 pm

aai Johan ek sal dit as ‘n eer vat om gecopy te word deur so ‘n wannabe intellectual as ek!
19 Natasha // Feb 18, 2008 at 11:53 pm

Bad Ben, ek sal graag meer met jou wil praat oor die mense wat Al so slander, die mense waarvoor jy so lief is en vertrou. Ek dink jy was tot dusver nog gelukkig genoeg om nie die kant van hulle te beleef wat Al moes. Ek het geen probleem met die kerk nie, net met die leierskap. Ons hoor DAAGLIKS van mense wat deur dieselfde hel moes gaan en steeds gaan as wat Al ‘n paar jaar gelede deurgegaan het. Dalk sal jy beter verstaan hoekom Al dit nie net sal laat gaan as jy ‘n paar van die horror stories hoor. Hoeveel onskuldige mense se lewens moet nog verwoes word???
Natasha
20 Al Lovejoy // Feb 20, 2008 at 1:02 am

What does this word slander mean “Bad Ben”, since you are not forthvoming on your innuendo and “physical evidence” you were bleating about. You seem to know a lot of big words, including what used to be my name and the title of the bestseller I wrote. You must have been there in the early nineties.

So help my ragged semantics out. What does slander mean???
21 MonSiret // Feb 20, 2008 at 9:12 pm

Bad Ben,

Eerstens, met so â€™n naam skaaf jou skowwe sekerlik so nou saam in die strop met die Bose dat jy glad nie eers meer die skrynende ironiese kontras besef nie!

Die Here het mos jou naam verander…

Tweedens, â€™n afdraaipaadjie:

[â€¦ a little more seekingâ€¦] ?

A seeker is not a seeker who does not find. Dit leer ons by die Groot Soeker wat nie aanhou soek totdat hy ons kry nie… Sien Luk 15 (lees maar die hele hoofstuk en nie net â€™n vers of wat nie.)

Nee, Ben, laat ons nie aanhou soek en soek en soekender verlore gaan terwyl die Weg, die Waarheid en die Lewe aan ons hartsdeure hamer met die Goeie Nuus van sy volbragte verlossing nie.

Derdens die crux:

Waarom verdedig jy diegene wat lynreg teen jou Here staan met aansprake op sy gesag?

Delf eerder dieper in die onuitputbaarheid van Christus soos Hy Homself aan ons bekend maak in sy Woord en aanvaar slegs Hom as Hoof en Heer oor alle mense, want eendag sal elke knie voor Hom buig en elke tong sal erken dat: Jesus Christus die Here is tot heerlikheid van God die Vader,

nie Fred May of Shofar nie.

m
22 Mon'Siret // Feb 21, 2008 at 7:09 am

Hallo
23 Hugo // Feb 21, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Mon’Siret, I don’t know why comments are ending up in the spam queue lately. Have you been commenting on other blogs, where your comments might have been flagged as spam by the owner?

No further comment from me, I havta get some work done.
24 Sad Ben // Feb 21, 2008 at 2:59 pm

“aansprake op sy gesag”?

nogals sterk gestel! Ek ervaar dit nie - hence verdediging.
25 Sad Ben // Feb 21, 2008 at 3:04 pm

Maar ek dink nie hierdie lyn van argument gaan vrugbaar wees nie: Kom ons gesels eers meer persoonlik; kry ‘n gevoel vir konteks - voor ons weer in die ons en hulle slaggat val. Dis nie nodig om aanvallend of verdedigend te raak nie.

Oja - die bad ben was ironies…
26 Mon'Siret // Feb 22, 2008 at 7:37 am

Almal, veral die administrator

Vir een of ander rede het my posts nie ge-submit nie en toe weer dubbel ge-submit. Die lang relaas is dus nie regtig van toepassing tot hierdie blog-lyn nie. Baie jammer hieroor.

Hugo, kan jy post 21 en 22 afhaal aangesien 23 die ware jakob is? Ek weet nie hoe werk jou system nie.

Dankie
27 Mon'Siret // Feb 22, 2008 at 8:15 am

Ben, ‘n woord oor gesag.

C.S. Lewis observed, “You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to” (Mere Christianity [Macmillan, 1952], pp. 40-41).

‘n Mens kan maklik dink dat die Here gekom het om ons ‘n beter (dÃÃ©) weg te wys, of ‘n groter (dÃÃ©) waarheid te kom vertel of ‘n dieper (dÃÃ©) lewe te kom gee. Die Skrif bring ons egter die wonderlike boodskap dat Christus self die Weg, die Waarheid en die Lewe IS! Nie bring so asof ons

Hoekom sÃª ek dit?

Want Jesus het gekom om EXCLUSIVELY erken te word as die enigste PERSOON deur wie ons vrye toegang tot die Vader kan kry. Dit beteken ons het nie as sulks enige leermeester of dominees of leier nodig buiten HOMSELF nie. Die volle gesag om gedien en gevolg te word vestig in Hom as persoon en daarom durf ons nie ‘n godjie maak van ‘n mens nie, al is hy hoe suskesvolle prediker, besigheidsman of inspirasie. (Hugo, hier haak ek aan jou vraag aan by die “many meetings” topic. Ja, eksklusiwiteit kweek verdeeldheid, maar dit is juis wat Jesus gesÃª het hy bring! Die swaard van Mattheus 10:34-36 /Miga :6)

â€œaansprake op sy gesagâ€? - nogals sterk gestel! Ek ervaar dit nie - hence verdediging”

As jy nie ervaar dat Fred ‘n magshand in jou en ander Shofar gemeentelede het nie, dink ek jy ervaar dit as sy invloed. Oordeel maar net wat hierdie invloed jou laat glo en dink oor die Christus, die fyn lyn word maklik oorgesteek.

Die invloed wat Paulus byvoorbeeld oor sy gemeentes se lede gehad het, was sekerlik een waarmee hy uitsluitlik die oÃ« op die Christus gevestig het, eerder as morele praatjies en sinnelose debat. Die algemene oor die ervaring van mense met Fred May, is dat hy (aspris of onbeplan - dit weet ons nie) mense se aandag op hom en sy kerk vestig. Indien dit nie sy bedoeling is nie, behoort hy na sy metodes te kyk aangesien

Ek moet sÃª, ek hoor min van mense wat bloot hoor sÃª: Die Here is groot. Ek hoor egter baie mense goed sÃª soos: Sjoe, maar kyk wat doen Shofar al weer (goed of sleg) of: Jissie, maar Shofar feature nogal of His People in N1 stad is nogal groot, “soveel-soveel” mense. En kyk net hulle facilities.

En ja, dit is nogal ontstellend.

Sjoe, ek wou net vinnig iets sÃª oor gesag, toe raak dit ook ‘n monster verduideliking.

Hugo, as jy my wil afskop, waarsku net!

;o-)
28 Rad Ben // Feb 22, 2008 at 9:12 am

Nee Mon’Sirat!

Ek ervaar jou post as baie insiggewend en het geen aanstoot geneem nie! (jy was evidently nog nie baie lank op die blog om van die voorafgaande discussions te beleef nie…)

Ek reply nounou op jou baie geldige concern.
29 Rad Ben // Feb 22, 2008 at 10:59 am

Jy lewer baie geldige kritiek op 2 punte:

*Mense (veral mense in shofar) weet nie wat om te maak met Fred May nie. You either “worship” him or loathe him.

*Mense (weereens hoofsaaklik die “shofarians”) is tot op die hede geneig om baie eng en shofarsentries ingesteld te gewees het.

Ek wil my ervaring/waarneming van die twee issues (waarmee ek ook ‘n paar jaar al stoei) gou weergee.

Ek het in shofar gekom en in beide hierdie slaggate getrap. Ek weet honestly nie hoekom dit gebeur nie, maar dit doen, veral met die jong oukies. Ek het egter op ‘n stadium baie ontnugter geword met die kerk sisteem en veral mense se sterk opinies teen ons. Sien ek het gevoel dat ons regtig waar net goed wil doen, maar mense ons misverstaan.

Deur introspeksie en ‘n lang tyd waarin ek baie vare gevra het, en deur God se genade nie die kerk verlaat het met offence nie, het ek besef maar my eie baggage, verwagtinge en maniere van relate tot leiers het meeste van die probleme veroorsaak. Ek besef nou dat ek self die keuse gemaak het om Fred op daai pedestal te sit.

Kyk laat ons geen mispersepsies toelaat nie. Die man is ‘n passivolle, uitgesproke en intense prediker, en dit maak dit soms maklik om te mis dat hy ook maar net ‘n skaamerige, soms baie verstrooide mens in sy persoonlike hoedanigheid is. Dis juis sy “menslike” karakter eienskappe wat baie keer maak dat mense so offended met hom raak. anyways. Ek dink nie dis nodig om te veel uit te brei nie. Ek sal maar net sÃª dat mense se persepsies van hom hulle eie is. Net oordat hy ‘n powerfull preacher is beteken nie ons moet hom worship nie, en die fiet dat hy so baie klem in sy strategie op leierskap-ontwikkeling plaas justify dit.

Die Shofar obsessie is ‘n funny en hartseer ding vir my. Wat ek dink mense optel is dat ons nie uit ons pad gaan om saam te werk met ander kerke nie. Weereens iets waarmee ek lank ‘n groot issue gehad het. Ek dink die official stance is dat Fred en van die ander leierskap al ‘n paar trainsmashes beleef het met ecumenicals (kerkeenheid-vibes) wat maar baie shaky was. Ook het ons maar ‘n harde geskiedenis in terme van verhoudinge met ander kerke op die dorp. Bad goed wat ek nie alles van weet nie, maar ook nie noodwendig iemand se skuld was nie. Suffice to say sommige verhoudinge is bietjie versuur. Tog ervaar ek ‘n willingness om vooruit te beweeg en in sentiment wil ons baie graag hande vat met ander gelowiges:

Die probleem van doktriene is wel prominent hier; maw, die fundementalisme ding sal weer aangespreek moet word. Ek sal vir nou eers sÃª ek ervaar sommige van ons stances as baie borderline- maar ek glo hierso integriteit sal weer nie hoef plek te maak vir lojaliteit nie…

Meer hieroor later.

Dankie vir jou oop gemoed Mon’Sirat.

Uiteindelik! Non-sentimental Shofar-critique!
30 Hugo // Feb 22, 2008 at 11:04 am

Dankie Ben. Goeie terugvoering.
31 Mon'Siret // Feb 22, 2008 at 1:41 pm

Mon ‘Siret, dankie, ek noem jou nie Ban nie. â˜ºHugo , hoe maak jy daai smiley face?
32 Hugo // Feb 22, 2008 at 1:54 pm

That’s a wink… - I make it by typing semicolon closebracket (or semicolon hyphen closebracket).
33 Hugo // Feb 22, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Ooh, here’s another way: colon wink colon, i.e. six characters of which the first and last are colons. Or in other words :bleh: with “bleh” replaced by “wink”.
34 gerhard // Feb 25, 2008 at 11:01 am

great post
35 Mon'Siret // Feb 25, 2008 at 6:06 pm

:bleh:

just had to try, thanks
meer woorde en minder jibberish later
m
36 Mon'Siret // Feb 25, 2008 at 6:26 pm

Ben,
vir jou, dat jy weet wat die gesindheid van my laaste post is
m
37 Al Lovejoy // Feb 26, 2008 at 1:58 pm

Hugo, these are two letters that I think you and your readers might benefit from readingâ€¦

Hi Alex

I hope this gets through to you. You might not remember me, but I was part of Shofar when you were around, in fact, you slept over in my room for a couple of nights while me and a mate watched over you during one of your drug rehabilitations or detoxes. This was end of 1993. We even brought you cigarettes when you were in Stellenbosch Hospital! I have followed, with interest, your campaign against the Mays.

I am not really interested in getting involved in all of this, but I am not too sorry to see them sweat a bit. When I contracted cancer in 1994 they dropped me like a hot potato, even though I was a member of the “inner circle”. The sad thing is their hold on our minds was of such a nature that my first reaction was to consider what I had done wrong, where my sin was. I even went back to Shofar once the chemotherapy was over. But by this time my eyes had been opened and I realised that they were not the sincere “nice” Christian people I thought they were. In a confrontation with Fred just before we left he started out by telling me what my big problem was and why I could not go ahead with God. I stopped him in mid stride and told him that I had felt betrayed when they dropped me with the cancer-thing. He actually admitted this and apologized, but the simple fact that he had never from his own convictions apologized was enough for me. We simply left.

Afterwards we found out that Lucille was telling everybody that I had contracted cancer because I had defied Fred. I assumed that these statements followed because I had told Fred once that I do not accept his doctrinal views on a certain matter. He then wanted me to promise him that I will only share the Shofar doctrine and I responded that I could not do so with a clear conscience. The discussion ended with him telling me that I should be willing to accept the consequences of my actions. They must have been overjoyed when I contracted cancer.

Over the years I have met so many people who were damaged and hurt by the Mays. Even Lucille’s own sister was kicked out of Shofar and Lucille basically spoke a curse over her life when she and her husband left Shofar. Lucille is a venomous person; I really have no time for her. Fortunately I have very little fear of these types of “curses”. Her sister seems fine too lol. By the way, my wife helped them (the Mays) out at home for a spell and after that she would refuse to go to any form of counselling where either of the two Mays was involved. It seems they often told their house guests about things that people shared with them during counselling sessions. My wife was really shocked by this.

I have moved on, you say that you are doing this to help those currently involved with Shofar. I hope this is the truth, because life is meant for positive things my friend. I have recently become a dad for the first time. A miracle as we thought we could not have kids (not bad for a “cursed” guy!) You might remember J, he and his wife are now helping drug addicts somewhere in Europe, they have two lovely kids. They also left Shofar under a cloud (I think his wife claimed that Fred had acted inappropriately towards her at one stage). But since only 1 person has ever been kicked out of Shofar (big lie!) I guess they left out of their own free will. But he is a lovely person, a real Christian. What happened to Guys? I often think of him and wonder if he ever “made it”. He was such a deeply hurt human being. I think nobody at Shofar was ever qualified or equipped to help someone with such desperate needs. In the end so many of us were really sincere but naive young people. We really believed that there was something special at Shofar, and the truth is that in the beginning things were beautiful. I have so many fond memories of these times. When you were not on drugs you were a joy to have in a small group. I am glad you are drug free. You are a better person without.

There is a dark part of me that desperately wants revenge. I would love to see them suffer for the lies they have told, the lives they have damaged. But I have better things to do. I think we all believe that at some stage they will come to a fall - that this type of extortion and exploitation will stop. But you do as you see fit. Just remember that there is a difference between Shofar and the people involved. I will never call the former a church, it is a business, the latter is the church and with her we should be gentle.

C

PS: I see you are sporting a new range of tattoos. I could not help but chuckle, does one of the old ones not say: “Child of Destiny” with a dagga-blaar at the top! LOL

Hi Brother C

Iâ€™ll stick to that because I donâ€™t know how well known your internet handle is and I want to retain anonymity outside of the old â€œinner circleâ€ because I am going to publish this. I donâ€™t really know quite what to make of your letter, so Iâ€™ll deal with it in sections.

It is truly wonderful that you overcame cancer, praise God. And what a blessing it is to be a father, even expectant like I am currently. Not bad for two cursed guys!

C, have to tell you, I do find it saddening that you remember me mostly as a mandrax addict whom you watched detox once a long time ago. If that detox were a murder, I would have served my time for it already and been paroled. I donâ€™t know if you have read Acid Alex yet, but I make it clear that in my opinion addicts of all species and plumage are living out their internal emotional pain, fears and spiritual damage. When I look back at the way I attempted to kill that agony with ugly debilitating drugs â€“ I do so with different eyes, and I do not look down on myself in any way because I have looked deeper than that and done it through the eyes of grace. Some of my friends are in the very same place today and I would never, ever look down on them for trying to quit no matter how sick it makes them. And Tash and I would do anything to assist. And I would never ever take them back to that place when they had recovered to remind them of it fourteen years later. I would not want to embarrass them or attempt to make them feel small. But that is just me. My wife Natasha is a very gentle and beautiful woman but her blunt comment to your letter was: â€œJy kan iemand uit Shofar neem - maar kan jy nou actually Shofar heeltemaal uit hulle neem?â€, admittedly she was being cynical because in her recent nasty interview with Lucille â€“ she dwelt on that specific detox deeply and contrary to your account, it was actually her and Fred who stood by my bed day and night until I was better. I remember your account more accurately.

C, I was a drug addict. A bad one. It nearly killed me and had me hospitalised on numerous occasions. Iâ€™ve faced life imprisonment for it, yet I consider it ALL joy that I came through that dangerous trial because it took me to a place where I was taught what grace really is, and that it is God and Him alone who led me into a relationship with Our Father and who always has and always will watch over us. Like J and his wife, I have a deep compassion for people hurting themselves with chemicals and self-destructive habits, but donâ€™t see anything on the outside â€“ Iâ€™m only interested in the pain and fear that drives it. I met an old friend in the parking lot of Boord Spar the other day and although M is still the remarkably beautiful woman she always was, she had a thin scar dissecting her neck in a sine wave type cut. I inquired carefully into the injury and she told me it was from surgery in her own fight with cancer. She also beat it and it is in complete remission but she laughed when I asked if she had been frightened because she reckoned, like me she had beaten heroin addiction â€“ and she was more frightened of that while it was happening than she was with cancer. Crosses come in all shapes and sizes and we all have to bear our own and I am certain that Our Father allows us this for a purpose. My brothers, my true brothers are mostly men like me. Rob, John-John, Verster. Rob is a drug of choice juice junkie like me and Sterra and John-John coke heads. Weâ€™ve watched each others backs through relapses, clean time, more relapses, bad times, back on the wagon, etc and it has made us stronger and love each other as brothers more and more. For Rob and me, we are currently both on the wagon and his second laaitie and our first are going to be separated by about seven weeks. John-John is on the back end of secondary phase recovery. And we tell each other everything. Including when it goes wrong. That is love in it for the whole distance, exactly like Our Father is with us in all our trials.

I am doing this for a lot more than Shofar C. What Fred and Lucille represent is an extreme example of the festerous sore that has become entrenched, evident and accepted throughout the Body affected by the Word of Faith movement. That means Rhema worldwide, and more importantly Ray McCauley, the IFCC and every other abusive ministry like the one the Mays are running as a business right here in beautiful broken Stellenbosch.

The reason why I have taken the Mayâ€™s to the mat on simple social and financial immorality - is because an imbecile worshipping a stone could tell you that transferring hard earned money from a single motherâ€™s savings account to Shofarâ€™s corporate current account for any reason takes food from her child or childrenâ€™s mouths. Hard cold fact. Telling you God cursed you - we can debate for days. That is why I focussed on money directly.

You must remember Griesel. It utterly sickened me watching Fred become his best friend and weave his spell of blessings and curses over him to get his hands on the inheritance money - â€œfor the Lordâ€™s ministryâ€. See, itâ€™s like Koos Kombuis said in the Rapport on Sunday - anyone who hands over money to the Mays is doing it of their own free will and it isnâ€™t against the law to do so â€“ but when people are carefully and deliberately lead to believe they will either be cursed or blessed by God Himself for something as base and corrupting as money â€“ depending on their heartiness and generosity â€“ we have moved onto an old criminal activity in organised crime, something Jesus called extortion. Making someone fearful or guilty before God as a means to extract cash from them or playing into their subliminal greed with esoteric promises â€“ is nothing more than criminal extortion and confidence trickery. And it is born in pure unbelief that God is not He who supplies all our needs in Christ Jesus. People give only in the expectation that they will be blessed and that is a terrible thing because it does not lead the church away from materialism and into a life marked by selflessness - of which our finances only play a small part and in which we are all equally responsible in the dispensation of our stewardship before God.

A woman on her own with a child is a person who suffers the most burdens of anyone in any society anywhere. And to isolate her further and add to her burdens financially in the church is not only contrary to every single passage that speaks of the fatherless in Scripture - it invokes all the terrible warnings upon the church to actively engage in doing so â€“ for that and that alone is the primary Pentecostal and evangelistic task of the church.

Exactly the same applies to orphaned students. The deep insanity of it is that this is exactly the sort of thing that Martin Luther was opposed to!!!

Of course they are going to claim everything from their house, cars, to mansion offices, designer clothes and salaries are all â€œblessingsâ€ from God in the form of â€œgiftsâ€. They are really not that stupid. But we are Christians C. If God â€œblessedâ€ me with Oude Molen â€“ it would be an orphanage right this second. It is and always will be â€“ WHAT we do with our gifts that matters to Our Father.

I too have no idea what poison possesses Lucilleâ€™s spirit. I have become a member of a lovely family, from Oupa and Ouma all the way down to my beautiful little nieces. I cannot imagine any reason for any person in our family to curse another. Especially in the event of a frightening illness. That is something that comes with unconditional acceptance because while our family is not perfect, it is the love in it that binds us together so closely - through both success and disaster. I have no fears for the future, because if something happened to me and Tash, Robbie would still grow up surrounded by love and care every single day of his life. There is no currency worth more than that.

I am long over the Mayâ€™s C. I have my own walk and ministry with my Father. Our personal dream is to achieve financial success independently for our personal childrenâ€™s trust fund and begin our own private childrenâ€™s home. With everything we have, we both want the maximum amount of children the law will allow us, and whom no one will have to adopt as our own. But we promised ourselves that we would trust Our Father and Him alone for the material means to do it â€“ and I am determined to realise that through sales of my literature and photographic fine art, both here and overseas. After seeing so much ugliness through money in the church, neither one of us will ever ask for help like that. Not using the childrenâ€™s plight as an excuse. I became involved in doing that for a while but when I examined my motives, I found myself wanting â€“ so I will trust that my Father looked ahead and instilled enough talent within me to satisfy my overwhelming need to be a father to the fatherless. Christ not only tells us that we must bear our cross He also promises to bear it with us.

My crusade to see Oude Molen into Oude Molen orphanage is more than an attempt at flushing the Mays out over their blatant manipulation and financial scamming; it is to bring to the student Body of Christ the hands on importance of understanding that faith without works is dead. And here in our contemporary world we are surrounded by a silent, massively growing population of fatherless children - who are going to impact on our futures as predictably as global warming unless something utterly radical is done to recognise the seriousness of the problem and actively change almost every activity the lends to its growth. That means learning first hand, day in and day out as a greater church how to care for them and love them right here in Stellenbosch. For each believing student, this period in their young spiritual walk should be marked by the memory of this ministry they were all involved in while they were studying. The truth of the matter is that if Oude Molen were turned into an orphanage next week, in the future, there would be students graduating with their doctorates in hand with heartbroken tears as they say good bye to children theyâ€™ve come to love deeply - who under any other circumstances would have been dead before they graduated, degree, Christian books and super gospel band CDâ€™s in hand.

The student Body of Christ, regardless of denomination, are One Body in Christ and among them, the only voices raised in heated contention - all surround Shofar, its doctrines, theories, foundations and social practises. The greater body of students donâ€™t see this as the direct influence of the Mays and their curses and blessings brainwashing â€“ they just see the logo the t-shirt and the smug self-righteous expressions and respond in anger, irritation and rejection.

Those who attempt to mimic the Mays should be stopped dead in their tracks, with absolutely no nonsense tolerated - exactly like the Mays need to be stopped, because regardless of how offended they might feel at the time, the Christian part of them should be screaming that there is something wrong. But C, you know as well as I do that it is a spirit the Mays brought into Shofar from the beginning and which is perpetuated and has been perfected in its replication by the Mays through trial and error. People like us, in all the laughable irony of one domino pushing down another to please and defend the bitter ego of one man and his poisonous wife â€“ were their learning curve. They learnt to deal with people like us by firstly convincing us we are out of Godâ€™s will and have unclean motives and spirits that only Fred can discern and expel. If we did not bow to his will and his leadershipâ€™s threats we were ostracised, gossiped and slandered over and called cursed.

So many beautiful Christians suffered this and had their friendships and fellowship torn apart â€“ and almost all of them were usually confronting Fred May on his twisting of Scripture and false doctrine. I know that there are students in Shofar, who are not in it just for the fun social ride and the thrill of being considered controversial because they have been convinced they ahead of the pack spiritually â€“ they are led by the Spirit and find their final authority in the Word.

They are going to suffer the same fate as the rest of us when they scrape up the courage to confront the Mays. And I will not stand by and watch it still happening indifferently. The Mays must be exposed to the world for exactly the nasty people they really are. And I donâ€™t think that has anything to with revenge, it is meant as warning and a prophylactic measure to those who are not completely sucked in.

Stay well and all the best for you as a family, may you have more children to love.

Al
38 Al Lovejoy // Feb 27, 2008 at 2:42 pm

Hi Alex
Fred once told this story, way in the beginning, of a lady he had prayed for with cancer who got healed. When my dad was nearly at the end I finally managed to convince Fred to come and pray for him at home. He did exactly as he did in the story he had told. It was then that I realised that this was all a hoax, all of this was fake and the stories were just stories. Needless to say we buried my dad shortly afterward.
I once visited you with J in the house across from Fred and Lucille in Die Boord. Fred arrived at some stage and crapped you out about something. He said that you would do well if you just followed in J and my “spiritual” wake. Those were his exact words. At the time I felt really flattered but afterwards it made me feel rotten. You never said anything during the session. It was kicking a man who was down. I am sorry about that and for that I apologize. But the rest was an experience. I always thought of you as a highly intelligent person who really had a shit life as a kid and had had to, as a result, struggle through addiction etc. I did not remember your tattoo because it showed you up as an addict, it was just something I remembered about you. Like the way you sometimes spoke: sucking in your breath audibly through your teeth when you were about to launch into a monologue! LOL Do you still do that? I also remember the jokes during “Bible school”. You once passed me a note that asked: “What is this sound: Shlliiick, thwoop, thwack, whikata whikita”. Answer: “Confidently extracting your sword and embedding it in your enemies forehead at a distance of 5 meters”. I think the topic of discussion was some Israelite invasion or conquest.
Bottom line: you and Guys were warning signs along the road. Shofar was not able to help you, in fact, we saw so many people like you turn away, worse off for the experience. I never saw any miracles during my time there. Only stories about Fred and his glorious past. I was never in it for the money. I came from a rigid religious experience and the prospect of a God who cared to interact with us, respond to us - was just something I had to experience. I think many such people are currently in Shofar, but their hopes are being shaped and raped by the doctrines there. The innocent hunger after a living God is slowly being turned into a desire for the fake experience which Shofar offers.
Thank you for your kind words. I am really sorry if you or your wife misinterpreted my first message. It is deeply painful to hear that someone thinks I am still “Shofar” on the inside, but I understand where your wife is coming from. I am not. I am overjoyed that you have found peace. A child is beyond words. It is seeing God. Many more to you as well. (We are still not sleeping ……. 3 months and counting).
Go well.
C
39 Al Lovejoy // Feb 27, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Hi Alex
Fred once told this story, way in the beginning, of a lady he had prayed for with cancer who got healed. When my dad was nearly at the end I finally managed to convince Fred to come and pray for him at home. He did exactly as he did in the story he had told. It was then that I realised that this was all a hoax, all of this was fake and the stories were just stories. Needless to say we buried my dad shortly afterwards.
I once visited you with J in the house across from Fred and Lucille in Die Boord. Fred arrived at some stage and crapped you out about something. He said that you would do well if you just followed in J and my “spiritual” wake. Those were his exact words. At the time I felt really flattered but afterwards it made me feel rotten. You never said anything during the session. It was kicking a man who was down. I am sorry about that and for that I apologize. But the rest was an experience. I always thought of you as a highly intelligent person who really had a shit life as a kid and had had to, as a result, struggle through addiction etc. I did not remember your tattoo because it showed you up as an addict, it was just something I remembered about you. Like the way you sometimes spoke: sucking in your breath audibly through your teeth when you were about to launch into a monologue! LOL Do you still do that? I also remember the jokes during “Bible school”. You once passed me a note that asked: “What is this sound: Shlliiick, thwoop, thwack, whikata whikita”. Answer: “Confidently extracting your sword and embedding it in your enemies forehead at a distance of 5 meters”. I think the topic of discussion was some Israelite invasion or conquest.
Bottom line: you and Guys were warning signs along the road. Shofar was not able to help you, in fact, we saw so many people like you turn away, worse off for the experience. I never saw any miracles during my time there. Only stories about Fred and his glorious past. I was never in it for the money. I came from a rigid religious experience and the prospect of a God who cared to interact with us, respond to us - was just something I had to experience. I think many such people are currently in Shofar, but their hopes are being shaped and raped by the doctrines there. The innocent hunger after a living God is slowly being turned into a desire for the fake experience which Shofar offers.
Thank you for your kind words. I am really sorry if you or your wife misinterpreted my first message. It is deeply painful to hear that someone thinks I am still “Shofar” on the inside, but I understand where your wife is coming from. I am not. I am overjoyed that you have found peace. A child is beyond words. It is seeing God. Many more to you as well. (We are still not sleeping ……. 3 months and counting).
Go well.
C
40 Al Lovejoy // Feb 27, 2008 at 2:45 pm

Thanks C

I’ll let Tashie read this when she comes home tonight. And ja, we are excited beyond belief. Our due date is around the 10 June and we have confirmation it is a boy!!!

Stay well mate, I hold nothing against either you or J, I know you were trying to do what you believed was the right thing and you had to go through it yourself too. Tashie is very sensitive at the moment, she had to go through Lucille’s nonsense recently and wants to donner anyone judging me. Toe maar, it’s all good and I’m very glad we came out of it okay with our faith intact. If truth be told, I actually owe Fred a thank you. If he had not lead me to believe I had lost my salvation - I would never have discovered grace at the gates of hell and understood that God is in it for the long haul regardless of what anyone says…

Al
41 Oubaas // Mar 17, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Al - either you write with godly inspiration (as in faster than the speed of light), or else you have the unfortunate habit of SHIFT INSERT. There is a thread here somewhere, bra.
42 Do Any Shofarians Care About Science? // Apr 20, 2008 at 12:00 am

[...] If such a group were to be successful, We’d have to hack out some ground rules: It must not be a place to debate the age of the earth. It must not be a place where “young-earth holier-than-thou, real Shofarians” come to try to convince the scientifically minded Shofarians to “get with the program”. Like Paul’s advice to the Thessalonians, to avoid being socially dislocated and “persecuted” by other Shofarians, I’d also have to advise such Shofarians to not make any waves. It would not be about fighting Shofar’s official position. After all, membership is subject to submission to authority on matters pertaining to church doctrine. [...]
43 Al Lovejoy // Apr 20, 2008 at 10:47 am

Ag, one cannot believe a word that comes out of any person in the leadership of Shofar’s mouths concerning the origin of life or the age of our world.

How can they debunk proven science when Fred May claims to have “raised the dead”? And on every forum and blog that I have mentioned this monstrous humdinger - it is the only topic that shuts Shofarians up completely. When I tackled them and the IFCC on money, I had an instant cyber stoning of Scripture and a hobnailed boot excursion into my deplorable character but suggest that we discuss how Fred May raised a dead man and it is suddenly more dead silent than two billion light years out into space in any direction…

I have a few “scientific” questions to ask Fred May:

Fred, We’ve heard you claim to have raised the dead, well more specifically that “dead” oke you pulled from a dustbin or something … I have a few questions to ask you here in a public forum because I think it is high time you discontinued being yellow and allowing other people to be cannon fodder spokespersons for you and present your own case like the big boy you claim you are. Besides, on the four or five occasions I personally heard you preach on this under the (untouchable/unquestionable) “anointing” - you never allowed for a question and answer session afterwards, so here:

1. Who determined medically that the man was clinically dead and not merely unconscious or concussed?

2. Did you pull him out of the dustbin alive or was he still “dead” at that point? I ask because it has been my unfortunate task to have worked with dead bodies and a fresh warm one is still all floppy, very heavy and difficult to work with. A stiff one is better but still, warm and floppy or cold and stiff - a dead body is extremely heavy and I cannot see you pulling one from a dustbin alone. So, was he alive at that point or still dead and did you have help? And if so, what are the names of the people who helped you?

3. What was the man’s name and where does he live today (or did he get dead again) and considering you have preached repeatedly about him, why have you never brought him to a Shofar meeting or had him interviewed on TBN?

And Fred, I do believe that God has power over death - Scripture says love does, and no, I don’t believe for one second that the man in your fable was dead - I think like all your miracle war stories, they are lies you have been telling and re-telling about yourself for years - quite simply for the shock sensation value to young, very inexperienced and naive kids fresh out of school and away from the rational influence of their parents and home pastors.

And of course you absolutely revel in rational and direct critism like this, which in reality you crave psychologically - because it fuels your martyr complex of the poor downtrodden victim of apartheid with your just Heavenly (transmogrified into very material) reward as God se rykste seun…

Come on Fred, you had the balls to try hand me over to the cops, thrown out to the street - handed over to your (invented) “jezebel spirits” … You and your wife lie about some phantom list of Shofar virgins I need to repent to before we can be reconciled … wharra, wharra. Fred, none of your social backstabbing, lies, slander, curses, screams of hate speech, lawyer’s letters or any other thing you have tried ever since I started voicing these questions back in the nineties - HAVE WORKED!!! Notice that yet? You cannot shut me up…

Same old questions, no more ways to hurt me and you still owe me and others the answers.

So let’s hear it, you claim to be God’s black key in Africa, the torch that is going to set the continent on fire - I think you are just a victim of your own obsessive slave mentality and addicted to slaking your craven sense of exclusive entitlement and simultaneously feeding your racial bitterness by enslaving those you envied and despised so deeply as a child with your own breed of inverted racism through twisting the Bible and actively persuing segregation to yourself - and mostly of course leeching and leeching off those rich white people you claim to care for.

I would like to remind you and point out that it is the easiest thing in the world to play the meekest, yet disarmingly generous philanthopist in the world - WITH OTHER PEOPLE’S HARD EARNED MONEY.

I know my tone might seem harsh to your delicate ears Fred - just answer the questions…
44 “What is your agenda?” he asks. // Apr 24, 2008 at 3:29 am

[...] I was unable to sign their membership contract. I documented one of the reasons in the post titled Why I Cannot Join Shofar. One friend in particular suggested it might be worth it to go covert and sign it anyway, but I [...]
45 Abusing the Story of Job // Jun 30, 2008 at 4:23 pm

[...] in Shofar’s later Foundations series in particular, those that I may not attend for being unable to sign their membership form. I have nothing to say about this in this section, I’ll come back to it in the [...]
46 Anon // Aug 19, 2008 at 10:58 pm

I, the undersigned, freely and voluntarily subscribe to the basic principles set out in this Statement of Faith and understand and consent to the fact that should I violate such principles, I may be required by the leadership to either accept their counsel and discipline or forfeit my membership.
>>

Surely the church should be entitled to ask you to leave (without having to endure endless litigation) if you don’t adhere to the tenents of their faith? For example if you commit adultery and insist it is not a sin, what would be the course of action the church should take?
47 Hugo // Aug 19, 2008 at 11:21 pm

Hmm, I believe a church’s doors should be open to all. I see that in Jesus’ teachings about the Pharisees and their “in crowd” and their purity principles rejecting and keeping the “impure” out.

By all means, if you want an organisation with a contract where the right to be a member depends on members submitting to the authority of the church, of course they can do that. They are also free to set themselves up as Pharisees. I have no trouble with that. I’m just explaining why I cannot be a member. Amongst other reasons.

And non-members may still attend, that’s probably fine as well. (But to the committed Shofarian, losing your membership kinda feels like condemning yourself to hell…) This contractual agreement isn’t even talking about something as strong as asking people to leave…

For example if you commit adultery and insist it is not a sin, what would be the course of action the church should take

Do they need to take action? Is that what they’re there for? To punish those that sin? Isn’t that God’s job, if you believe in a punitive God like that? Or do they want to set up a Pharisaic “pure” culture?
48 Senior Pastor Fred May // Aug 20, 2008 at 1:37 am

[Ed: This post is an impostor. As confirmed below, it was not sent by Fred May.]

In 1989 Pastor Fred May felt the need to take a ministry sabbatical after spending much time in intensive ministry both in South Africa and abroad. At the same time his getting married to Lucille posed some practical challenges in the light of the prevailing political environment at the time. After prayer they both felt the Lord leading them to settle in the Stellenbosch area, where God graciously provided them with an idyllic cottage on a beautiful wine farm.
Both Fred and Lucille enjoyed the break from ministry. Lucille had been active as a worship minister for several years before then. While both of them were working full time, God began to impress a tremendous need on Pastor Fred’s heart to begin interceding for the town of Stellenbosch. The prayer burden became all-consuming. It became clear that there was a mighty spiritual contention raging for the town at the time, with occult practitioners even becoming so bold as to do door-to-door visits, leaving call cards that encouraged residents to pursue an interest in “Luciferology”.
Attempts to mobilize renewal churches in the town against the spiritual advance of that danger proved unsuccessful. At the same time the intensity of the burden grew, as did strong, satanically inspired opposition. By this time Lucille had given birth to their first son, Stephan. The home and family came under increasing criminal attack and harassment. God’s faithfulness however, kept them from physical harm, save mere material loss, and eventually brought complete, miraculous deliverance.
Despite the initial misgivings of a community very committed to what was the quintessential legacy of traditional white, Afrikaans, South Africa, the truth of God’s calling on Shophar Christian Church as a blessing to this town, with this town and for this town has dawned and is now being embraced even here. The name of this ministry has enjoyed respect for several years both nationally and in other countries.
This church believes in the great redemptive purpose of the town and university of Stellenbosch and of the nation of South Africa as a whole and seeks partnership in this regard relentlessly and sincerely.
49 Hugo // Aug 20, 2008 at 5:46 am

Hmm… Fred? That you? (I find it hard to believe, but I’ve been wrong about something like that before.)

This church believes in the great redemptive purpose of the town and university of Stellenbosch and of the nation of South Africa as a whole and seeks partnership in this regard relentlessly and sincerely.

From what I’ve hear, it did sound as though Shofar isn’t interested in partnerships with SG or Moederkerk…
50 gerhard // Aug 20, 2008 at 9:50 am

Surely the church should be entitled to ask you to leave (without having to endure endless litigation) if you donâ€™t adhere to the tenents of their faith? For example if you commit adultery and insist it is not a sin, what would be the course of action the church should take?

sure they should have to right to prevent you attending service, however , i don’t think the cirtisism is aimed at that.

Cults like this tend to socially isolate that person from friends and family. the church encourages you to be a good christain ridding youself of satans influence (by shedding what it percieves satanic , basically most things not directly associated with the church and its doctrine) this creates a social dependence on the church and church members. So if they do decide to disagree with the church then they loose everything because their lives were built up around it and its people. (as intended by church leadership and apparently by freds god)

so there you have it , listen to me , do as i do , or you will loose everything .you love.. thats a powerful and very oppressive thing …
51 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 10:52 am

so there you have it , listen to me , do as i do , or you will loose everything .you love.. thats a powerful and very oppressive thing â€¦

too bad it’s not true.

I recall a very recent situation where Fred was adressing a bunch of songwriters (including me) at an official meeting. He referred to a michael bolton cover of the classic song “Georgia” which he stated inspried a reaction of affection towards Jesus.

It took me by surprise too, which is puzzling, considering I am in the church. So I can understand your position; but this is purely members perosonal simplification of church “policy”.

Fred says once: “maybe you should turn off linkin park and listen to some gospel” and most of the sheep thinks that means NO LINKIN PARK EVER AGAIN.

Weird. But if you are a mature (or stubborn) enough member you realize that you need to discern for yourself what things are harmfull to you - ie. Fred has not told me that overconsumption of coffee is harmfull - and take responsibility for yourself.

Sorry for the utterly fragmented and “postmodern” reply.
52 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:20 am

Oh, and by the way.

I just spoke to Senior Pastor Fred May, coincidentally, who has no recollection of posting on thinktoomuch. The above QUOTED paragraph is from our website, and is in fact composed by Fred, yet I doubt it would have been his personal answer to the prior discussion.

So. Well-meaning shofarite. What you are doing is not only unethical, but actually against the law. Stop speaking on behalf of Fred IMMEDIATELY. It’s not on.
53 Kenneth Oberlander // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:28 am

Weird. But if you are a mature (or stubborn) enough member you realize that you need to discern for yourself what things are harmfull to you - ie. Fred has not told me that overconsumption of coffee is harmfull - and take responsibility for yourself.

I don’t follow this line of argumentation. If you need to discern for yourself the relative merits of things, then why do you need a pastor at all?
54 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:44 am

Thanks for the question Kenneth!

I would like to clarify: for this reason I used the word “mature”. Hence, until you grow to a place of maturity you are going to need someone to trust enough to instruct you. Kinda like babies who are prone to put their hands on hot plates. (sorry for using such an emotionally loaded anecdote, but I does convey an important part of what I want to say).

Shofar is built upon a system of discipeship which is the term we use to refer to the abovementioned process of growing as a christian.
55 Oubaas // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:49 am

Bad Bed, who decides where this “place of maturity” is?
56 Oubaas // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:49 am

Should be “Bad Ben”, apologies.
57 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:55 am

Scriptures point to qualities that can be considered maturity, but obviously this is problematized in practise (like the sheep simplifying pastoral instruction)…

The official position is that considering oneself mature and “arrived” is pride and betrays the exact opposite.

It’s a scriptural paradox that I don’t think I will ever be able to communicate adequately.
58 Hugo // Aug 20, 2008 at 11:57 am

Thanks for the responses Ben.

What do you suggest I do with the impostor’s comment? On the one hand I feel I should not “police” comments, as it cannot be done consistently. On the other hand, I’m thinking it might be helpful to just add a little “(impostor)” note next to the name on that post?

Most curious I remain as to who posts comments like that and what their intention is. Because I think you really cannot tell for certain if it was a Shofarian or an anti-Shofarian… y’know?

The maturity thing… I understand where that comes from, but it certainly contributes to the impression of Shofar as “better than thou” - I ran into a friend recently that said he went to Shofar for a short while. Eventually felt uncomfortable there because he was expected to be able to pray in tongues, and felt the idea that he is “immature” in his religion to be rather condescending.

I suppose there isn’t much that can be done about it, if Shofar really believes everyone should be able to pray in tongues and that people that haven’t followed your path of discipleship have not reached “maturity”… “that’s just how it is, unfortunately”…?
59 Hugo // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Um… and now I’m worried we’re effectively pouncing on you, Ben. Make a little contribution and suddenly everyone is at you like a pack of wolves. Kinda discourages people from commenting, doesn’t it?

Not sure what can be done about this kind of dynamic, still scratching my head and dreaming about potential features of an “ideal” commenting system for what we need it for. Will probably take me until year’s end before I have everything implemented.
60 Kenneth Oberlander // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:20 pm

@Bad Ben

I take it, in this system, the pastor is considered to have fully grown to maturity, whilst the congregation have not?

If so, when does the congregation determine that they have matured sufficiently?

When does the pastor, for that matter?

@Hugo

I’m not really pouncing on Bad Ben, so much as asking the questions that I would ask, if I was in that situation.
61 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:25 pm

@Kenneth

I think you might be missing the point of my previous post. no-one is considered as perfectly mature. The Pastors are expected to be humble: not mature.

@Hugo

Thanks for the comments.

Good point about pro- or anti-shofar fraudulent commenter. but it still smells like misdirected Pro-shofar good intentions to me. Anti-shofarians aren’t usually that clever

On the superiority complex thing: yip it’s an issue. I have no clear cut answer or rebuttal. But I, as shofarite, believe it should not be this way. I hate the nobody’s perfect evasion, but it does seem rather apt.*

*jy het mos my klip in die bos rubriek gelees…
62 Bad Ben // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Oh.

PS. I don’t feel pounced upon. Hgo lyk my ek en jy gaan weer moet koffie drink…
63 Kenneth Oberlander // Aug 20, 2008 at 12:31 pm

I think you might be missing the point of my previous post. no-one is considered as perfectly mature. The Pastors are expected to be humble: not mature.

I’m not really worried about perfect maturity per se. I’m more interested when you determine when someone is mature enough…

e.g. is a person mature enough when he/she can make up their own mind about the relevance or merits of their pastors teachings?
64 Hugo // Aug 20, 2008 at 1:45 pm

Ben: that would be nice. Note though: I’m leaving in a week, it would have to be before then.

With regards to “pouncing”, I’m thinking also of… -M- , who rather refrains from commenting *at all*, knowing that one comment will drag her into long debates/discussions she does not have time for. I’m wondering if there’s any way of reducing that problem a little. And no, there probably isn’t, and I should just shuddup and stop going completely off-topic.

Kenneth: … um… I’d think that’s something you find in yourself? Could probably compare to some ideas in the Zen tradition as well. Apprenticeship with spiritual teacher showing a way, personal journey and search to start following on that way, at some point student feels they “get it”, and have grown to the point where they feel mature enough to challenge and expand on master’s teachings. It then becomes more of a peer-based relationship, I suspect.

Maybe you could refine your question? Give “us” some more direction? Hmm, it was in this context:

you need to discern for yourself what things are harmfull to you

We are talking in the context of people that have committed themselves to a certain “way”, a certain religion. In that context… um… I’m clearly floundering in my attempts to get some grips on your question. Can you present me with a handle?
65 Kenneth Oberlander // Aug 20, 2008 at 2:25 pm

OK, let’s try an analogy. Let’s use Ben’s example of coffee.

Your pastor tells you coffee is bad. Are you mature enough within your faith when:

you need to discern for yourself what things are harmfull to you

?

In other words, when you can decide for yourself that coffee is bad? Scrutinise your pastor’s words, and then weigh the evidence for yourself?

Now, substitute Limp Bizkit for coffee. Or dinosaur. Or university. Or racism.

Is the sign of sufficient maturity when you can justify to yourself, without the intervention of your pastor, that something is right or wrong?
66 Al Lovejoy // Aug 21, 2008 at 12:03 am

Some one named Corne you told me: “Mr Lovejoy - You have become slanderous to an extent of discrediting yourself and all that follow the heresy that you believe in and teach.

Luk 17:1 And he said to his disciples, It is necessary for causes of trouble to come about, but unhappy is he by whom they come.
Luk 17:2 It would be well for him if a great stone was put round his neck and he was dropped into the sea, before he made trouble for any of these little ones.”

Yet, you could not…

However, someone powerful, who deals directly with the money, the programs … the multimedia Christ product - contacted me and eventually asked me a simple question. One that no Christian leader has yet thought to ask me in response. The stock reaction is either meaningless Third Party threats like his or silent denial.

Q: What is my solution?

The problem â€¦ is when truth is brokered for a price … Someone innocent dies between two thieves … and more than a problem - it is the entrenched and celebrated Institution.

It is not Him.

If Truth be told, will it eventually be a story of a rich white church who stops being self-obsessed with money and the self gratifying trappings of Christianity and starts actually and personally rescuing millions of black children and bringing them in, many who are sick and all who have nothing - so that ten years from now … the concept of white’s-only Christian family is relegated to a part of SA church history we remind our children of like the Boogeyman - lest they never forget … that we once in our blindness tore our Lord’s skin off with senseless racism and in our greed we tried to sell Him into crucifixion for the media dollar - until we realised, that instead of truth and reconciliation, our Father is only interested in repentance and restitution to the fatherless victims … ???

Or … ignore what I’m pointing out so bluntly because it is to big, horrifying and uncomfortable to the pocket and move on to a bigger feel good back slapping superhug in a greater oligarchic sports monument, with even denser upbeat media coverage of the lovely mostly white and black empowernment crowd and newer, ubercooler, ticket selling gospel idols?

I liken the current Charismatic “leadership” of this country with the same distaste and blunt nausea as the SABC of the eighties. I remember once we won some test, against some rebel team who played in spite of the political sanctions against us - and on the news that night nineteen minutes of primetime was dedicated to the match, two and half covered troops shooting just under twenty kids in the townships.

Why didn’t Buchan hold it in the middle of Alex or Kayelitsha to be different to them?

Everyone can understand the first part. Angus came to the Bos. Hooked up with Shofar Publishing, also a media publishing company with a non-profit church front, our own little assimilation cult - Shofar Christian Church. Free talent in the front, profit out the back â€¦. Angus and God se Rykste Seun, Fred May bought sacks and sacks of potatoes, stamped them with venue details and sent the starstruck Shofarians out to go dish those tatoes out as marketing gimmicks to people in shops and on the street who looked like they could afford tickets to come to the show. They eventually came into our shop and when my wife told them to leave the clients and take the potatoes down to the squatters under the railway bridge to eat, there are at least thirty hungry children down there - the Shofarians got furious and left. Same response as when they came begging for money so that they could go on â€œmissionsâ€ to Mozambuiqe.

Ja, there are always consequences in the application of several glaring truths. Here is the biggest truth of all - I am led to believe … Angus Buchan … in a poor developing nation, where the distance between the minority who have everything and still want more “Christians” and the have-nothing and no-belief-in-anything fatherless children is almost the widest chasm in the world - and Angus pays other farmers not to plant crops so he can have a mega tent meeting for rich mostly white Christians.

He paid other farmers not to plant crops so he could sell cut down trees and plastic not one child in South Africa can eat. That is the simple truth in application.

Solution:

1. Bring back the Lord’s Supper immediately.

2. Open a free crÃ¨che in every church.

3. Place the babies abandoned in the crÃ¨ches with those couples who have clean financial houses and are ready for them in the church. Their house church is their support system.

Keep on doing it until no more babies are left in the crÃ¨ches and the churches are full. Just pray and make a decision.

The Lord’s Supper is our basic currency in a world that has forgotten what is priceless and Who loves us equally. it is the one thing that a stinking rich man can bring to worship and remember Christ and share with the poorest of the poor on the same terms. It is Jesus in John’s Revelation saying I stand at the door and knock - and when He says come in and sup, he is talking about making breakfast for Peter, feeding him AND giving him a catch of fish that Peter has the choice over. Turn into cash or the Lord’s Supper and feed his lambs.

It was such an integral part of the early church public worship that Paul seems to speak from the assumption that the Corinthians had no clue really why they were doing it - thereby turning something Holy into a drunken cliquey party.

A key is a key, it opens a door. In this instance to the Kingdom of God in all its Glory - it is not simply just a cool idea from Al Lovejoy, what people think of my ideas is utterly immaterial to me - it is Jesus SYSTEMIC system, that deobjectifies people, generates syncretism and people are measured by His merit as opposed to the appearance of material capital. He commanded us to do it often. When believers who have money are afforded the opportunity to provide a simple plate of food and eat it before the Father with those who barely have none and no one to believe in, for no other reason than to celebrate His love, grace and forgiveness to all men - things start happening like three thousand people are found by Christ in a day through the gospel and the ACTS of Pentecost return with the gifts. Real life long faith emerges and those who are too good or too hypocritical will be revealed and slink away. Something special will happen, really special.

Test Him.

It was what the prophet Malachi was talking about when he issued that warning, the warning which went unheeded and resulted in necklacings and murder in our streets again and which is so misused for MONEY in the “faith” movement - it is the real tithe of Israel, the one that is eaten in the Temple annually at Passover, the Lord’s supper that has somehow been sold for 10% cash to support these strings of parasite’s and their multimedia cash business of the gospel instead of a storehouse to feed His lambs.

The church has way too many Senior Parasites and almost no financially stable Timothy men capable of using ALL their resources for the Kingdom and standing in as “father’s” in the church.

I’ve known wealth and power … was a millionaire drug lord at 36 and connected worldwide from politicians to terrorists but when I came to my senses, I walked away and divested myself of everything. Everything, right down to the very clothes I bought with drug money and stark naked started the long business of rebuilding my business affairs from scratch - the way my Father would expect of a trusted son and a son who trusts my Father so much - I never need to chase money again.

The biggest lie of the “cash tithe”, other than starving the church spiritually to almost the point of death - is that it suggests that Jesus, who gave us His life to us only expects a 10% cash stipend from our disposable income. The great Commission was issued to Peter on the beach … feed, feed, feed. Morne Bosch laughed in my face when I told him this, but he is a man for whom the gospel is really first and foremost a source of income all the way from non profit tithes â€¦. to the more under cover commercial Shofar Publishing â€¦ real South Africans coming to meetings with food instead of star stuck Maties with study money to support his and all the rest of the Shofar leaderâ€™s lavish lifestyles, would mean he would have to become master of his own house by his own means first, like a true Timothy man - so he has something after he has worked to share with the Body like a repentant thief.

To start off with, let’s begin with the greatest in the Kingdom and the most vulnerable member of our society - the chid. To me, Madiba was right - there are three stations, which all men may try to choose reaching in life - that of a son, a husband and a father.

The reason why we as men are told to love our wives and not vex our children is because together, with them, we make Three and complete the Mystery … and the two became one flesh. We are created in His likeness and are destined to be husbands and shepherds of all the mothers and lambs in the Father’s Kingdom; it is the anointing of which Jesus testified in the synagogue and has become our given responsibility. There is no other anointing.

This simple “unit” of human relationship is like fire, holy fire. This is the fire of revival. A fire needs fuel, oxygen and heat to exist - a church needs mothers, fathers and the most important and vulnerable among us - children to love and care for. This is life begetting life. When this is in a state of balance, the Spirit is able to move more freely among us and lead us into deeper truth - because the Father’s heart is always towards His children and it is not his will that any of these little one’s should perish.

This basic of basic â€œunitsâ€ of human relationship, and one we all share, no matter how orphaned from that our own personal experience may have been - is what we as leaders of the church must nurture and where necessary, bring back to a state of balance. Watch over the flocks and feed the sheep. Recreate, repair and nurture families by all means, including and most importantly - because of the orphans of our recent politico-religious civil war and the advent of AIDS survivors in dead families - EXTENSION. Our understanding of Eph 1 is that we are all adopted orphans in our Father’s family and the function of the bride of Christ is that of a mother to these real lost lambs.

So … using the same analogy of a fire being put out by removing either heat, oxygen or the fuel - think of the reverse mirror image and removal of the father, the single mother and eventually leaving nothing but the fatherless child in a fractured family unit, and without any spiritual sanctuary as the source of spiritual death and crime blazing across our country.

Our Lord found Himself very much in a similar position to us, where the letter of the covenant had taken on a rigid and controlling outward form to the almost complete detriment of the spirit of mercy and grace co-existent in that same covenant by faith. And it had found real commercial value. He was surrounded by a tangle of conflicting and dangerous politics, and like ourselves â€¦ the â€œdetritusâ€ at the bottom of the gulf between the very few who have everything materially, yet live in utter denial of this and those who do not, yet are enslaved to sustain that materialism creating social casualties â€¦ fatherless children.

Our Israeli friends learnt this hard lesson after WWII, when they had a vast population of very young survivors in ratio to those old enough to stand in as primary caregivers and adult role models. The lesson in church building we can learn from the Israelis is that every man is a father to every child in the church and every child belongs to the mothers. I will discuss our friendâ€™s failures and partial triumphs later in rebuilding their nation; suffice to say - this preamble was intended to identify the primary basic social unit we are dealing with as Christians.

The family.

Remembering that our focus is on supporting and maintaining this basic ‘unit’, not simply our own but with those whom we would call brothers. That means the kids on tik in the squatter camp affect yours! It is what our â€˜businessâ€™ is about as our Father’s children and keepers of his Kingdom called to serve the greatest as we wash our brotherâ€™s feet - And keeping this as a continual unspoken focus in any and all our endeavours, frees us up to be ourselves in our gifts and callings as we work to do so â€¦ with the cement of course being love.

Remember, no matter how massive a corporation or tangled its operations, its core business can always be reduced to something extraordinarily simple.

So the ideal … a church, by definition, must be in all her endeavours dedicated to building, supporting and nurturing family units - to care for the greatest in our Fatherâ€™s kingdom, and by all means possible extend them. And we do this consciously aware that without grace, we become evil fathers, yet in this grace we work out our salvation with fear and trembling and watch over each others lives. As brotherâ€™s in one greater Family, we bind ourselves together by remembering Him in the fashion he commanded us to - and celebrate Him when we gather publicly with the Lordâ€™s Supper.

The solutions Jesus presented us with as humanity, could be understood by the most illiterate and poor, yet also the educated and rich. This simple public gathering together as families, and the only neutral meeting place of cultures, rich, poor, enemies and friends and people who believe and adhere to His teachings to celebrate and feed one another’s families a sacred meal in His name and thank our Father often for each other in forgiveness and that Dayâ€™s bread â€“ this is the foundation, the corner stone which the builders have rejected - and all He asks from us as our first act of faith. Any normalising, relational system dedicated to returning balance to the Body has to achieve this simple shift and re-focus of who we are and what we do - throughout every aspect of the church. Anything that draws attention away from this work we have been given, for any reason - is out of our Fatherâ€™s will.

If we understand our core and primary business â€“ the legacy to overcome and the embedded points of migration become clearer, the smoke is easier to see through and thus it is easier to introduce the concept of refocusing effort to the stakeholders, without engendering anxiety. Above all it remains a simple measuring rod against which all things in our midst are tested and the wire frame around which we can design our childrenâ€™s common future.

One thing to remember, is that we are dealing in every aspect with human beings and a system which becomes effective eventually is only going to be one which serves to bring change â€“ not one which demands service, that, in the final analysis â€“ always breaks down.

I might add … when a person comes back from far, far away and you come back to the place you were, yet find it worse than you left … from exactly the same corruption that caused you to leave and swear never to come back in the first place - you pull out a sword and use the blunt edge to challenge anyone to a fight over the core issue of that corruption. Here, it happens to be about heavenly wealth that has been given to all mankind, yet is now up for sale, miracle gimmicks, for man made money, to the elite few, at the top of a terrible pyramid - and it made Christ violently angry when he confronted the same spirit of commercial religion, because it is the abomination which brings desolation â€¦ while it in turn screams louder that it brings the gospel â€¦ â€¦. â€¦. no matter how innocuous it is portrayed … or in God’s “best interests” it seems.

The only place you will see the light of our Fatherâ€™s love is in the eyes of your brother, And you are commanded to love and break bread with him.

Those who deny it or get up to fight you are not your brothers, the men who ask for pause and create space to reason with you and listen instead - are.

As system is only as resilient as it’s weakest component - and in the analysis above, it happens to be us fathers. Without us fathers, in our own families and in the Body - the trinity of our reflection of God breaks, which makes us men - the weakest link.

The church is family; the family is the church and nothing else.

Usury.

Two men are seated at a table â€¦ at a Universal micro-economic level â€“ what tangible object can those two men exchange in terms of absolute and real value, which allows for the poorer man to give more than the richer man â€¦ although the inherent value of that object is identical and has been from the time the same object was in the hand of our Lord?.

A plate of food, and that and that alone is the basic unit of currency in Our Business.

What happens when money in any form is placed between them instead? Any scenario ….

Usury.

One of those men owes the other something. And the money belongs to neither.

A Timothy man does not live by credit. In any form. His Father has already given him everything. A Timothy man owns everything he possesses as a steward, yet has relinquished legal control over any of it. A Timothy man understands that all the money under his control belongs to Caesar, and to that institution he will pay what he owes but the only decisions he will pray for when using it, will be for single mothers and fatherless children in the greater Family he was adopted into by faith - first. A Timothy man is a tentmaker and trader, he generates more than he consumes, so that he may have something to give. A Timothy man is driven to support the weak. A Timothy man measures all things by a different currency. A Timothy man does not live by credit â€“ he lives by faith.

A Timothy manâ€™s business is to break bread.

Usury.

Money â€¦ how can we trust God to bring healing to the Body with something that belongs to man and corrupts him? How do you make a poor man feel rich? How can we give that which is priceless to a world in which we are in debt through loans, credit and usury. Count honestly â€¦ and what exactly do you own?

Because once you realise the debt must be paid and no more made â€“ the real question becomes: What do you really want to own?

This is not a prophecy; it is pure analysis â€“ the day that churches all over South Africa gather once a week, and the onus is upon each and every faithful believer and member of that church to provide two plates of food through a buffet or organised collection for the ingredients - And invite one stranger to that celebration of The Lordâ€™s Supper â€“ will be the dawn of everything our Father wants for us. It will only come through Timothy men.

Test Him.

In feeding the multitude, Jesus was telling us that 100% of a single loaf, once divided equally - feeds more than the sum of its parts until baskets of leftovers … I don’t think Keynesian Macro Economic principles were invited to that party - Capice?

I write this as to brothers and sisters and with Our Father listening. Validation I have in my Fatherâ€™s love, and I hope this reaches the right ears, who then take it to Him like I have and allow it to become heart and a life of faith.

I, unfortunately … am called to other creative engagements and lovelier responsibilities beyond this discussion and consider any merit I have brought it complete.

Bless youâ€¦

Al
67 Bad Ben // Aug 21, 2008 at 8:42 am

thus endeth the dialogue…
68 Hugo // Aug 21, 2008 at 11:14 am

Another email from another friend concurs with a “Instead, we get treated to another magnum opus comment by Al Lovejoy…sigh.” And I’m back to scratching my head “um… grrr… what to do? get my vapourware commenting system implemented ASAP…”

Basically, Al, I appreciate the effort you put in and the thoughts you share (though that comment is long enough that I only read bits and pieces here and there) but I’m going to have to have some way of keeping them “to one side” so as to not break the flow of a discussion other commenters are trying to have, y’know?
69 -M- // Aug 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm

@ Hugo: thesis should be finished in more or less a month time, so I shall return on this blog, soon…very soon…

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